EXISTENCE (not creation) Ex Nihilo

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"something cannot arise from nothing". since there definitely is "something", there was always "something".<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My contention is that nothing arises from nothing, by conceptual means. You on the other hand expect some sort of physical manifestation to accompany your thoughts. Hence the statement (something cannot arise from nothing). I would have to agree under your pretext, but if the universe is not a physical entity, and I do believe that it is not, you could be as far from the truth as anyone can be.

Non-Existence is without a doubt undefinable, yet it must be defined. Existence out of necessity is the definition of Non-Existence, but it is an incomplete definition - being that Non-Existence is undefinable. Existence is an ongoing process. The process entails discrete conceptual entities because no other means is possible. These conceptual entities are geometric embodiments of Non-Existence. Within this paragraph the relationships of zero, one, and infinity are understood through conceptual means. No physical understanding is necessary.

To me you are nothing, and please don't take that the wrong way. The key word being (are) - Meaning you exist as opposed to ??????.

Read this more than once and very carefully to avoid misunderstanding. I did to avoid any mistakes.

skarp

existence was before we became.it is not dependent on conceptual ideas or thought.

also do you think you are nothing?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">existence was before we became.it is not dependent on conceptual ideas or thought.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If I interpret you correctly - You are saying that when I used the word conceptual that I am referring to a brain? Specifically a human brain?

I'm saying that Existence is entirely conceptual, that the universe on down to a fundamental entity is conceptual.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">also do you think you are nothing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In a manner of speaking ...YES. I consist of an x number of nothings. I am part of the definition in Non-Existence of which an infinity of nothings are possible.

Today there are X number of fundamental entities that make up the universe. Tomorrow there will be x+y number of units. The next day there will be x+y+z units. Existence is an ongoing definition in Non-Existence - I.E.Conceptual geometric embodiments made of nothing at all.

skarp, my first reaction, and we've hit on this subject before, is "come on! you can't be serious". but like i've said before there is something appealing about this. while any two of us may agree that the sun exists or that we exist and we call things "something", what is it really? look at an atom. it's 99.9% "space", at least. so, what are the electrons, protons and nucleus made of? i realized i'm showing my ignorance of physics but going on down the line, what is stuff made of? this "solid" world is surely an "illusion" in so far as our senses cannot perceive the difference between the electron and it's created image. (like, if the electron is going so fast around the nucleus it makes it "look like" the atom is solid.) so, let's say that sense-wise, the solid universe is an illusion, to us. then, if the microcosm is infinite, forget about it! game over! let's say for arguments sake that the microcosm isn't infinite. so, what is "matter" (if it is anything)? m, what do you think?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Skarp</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">existence was before we became.it is not dependent on conceptual ideas or thought.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If I interpret you correctly - You are saying that when I used the word conceptual that I am referring to a brain? Specifically a human brain?
_____________________________________________________________________

ANS:Skarp,lets not be silly now,of course i mean Human brain,where else would the idea of concept come from?
_____________________________________________________________________
I'm saying that Existence is entirely conceptual, that the universe on down to a fundamental entity is conceptual.
_____________________________________________________________________

ANS: does that really make sense,if that is true what is the essense of concept?
______________________________________________________________________

also do you think you are nothing?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In a manner of speaking ...YES. I consist of an x number of nothings. I am part of the definition in Non-Existence of which an infinity of nothings are possible.
____________________________________________________________________

ANS: Truly to bad,to me that is one of greatest crimes of the idea or concept of god,leads many to think so little of themselves because they can never measure up to god and his ideals.Our ancestors would be horrorfied,they struggled to get this far only to find that a majority of Humans no longer believe in there own being. perhaps this a stage we must go through to mature,grow and gain confidence and feel good of our being[]
_____________________________________________________________________
Today there are X number of fundamental entities that make up the universe. Tomorrow there will be x+y number of units. The next day there will be x+y+z units. Existence is an ongoing definition in Non-Existence - I.E.Conceptual geometric embodiments made of nothing at all.
____________________________________________________________________

ANS: that Skarp is Discovery!! isn't Great!! i think so and it has never lead me to think that Human Beings are nothingness.

QUES:why do you think of all things as nothing,when clearly they are not? also define your nothing.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">while any two of us may agree that the sun exists or that we exist and we call things "something", what is it really? look at an atom. it's 99.9% "space", at least. so, what are the electrons, protons and nucleus made of?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Well - You're 99.9% of the way there. If the sun put out no light - It wouldn't look any different than space would it? There is really not a whole lot of difference between space and matter. Matter for lack of a better word at this time is the location of the foci of individual fundamental entities, and space is the extension of those foci. Electrons, protons, and the like are made up of these individual fundamental entities. I am rather confident that photons are the elementary geometric, and they are composed of nothing at all. This is to be expected .... there are no parts at the fundamental level. In theory all known phenomena should be explainable with a clear understanding, and motion of the photon. You might ask - How is it that nothing can move? To that I would say conceptually.