infinite, eternal universe

Tuffy: I see what you are getting at, I have been thinking of the perception issue you raise. If the Universe were ever in a pure 3-D homogenous state there would be nothing present to percieve and no need for any definition of the finite or infinity. The only way to empirically varify anything within a pure monistic state, one would have to observe it and thus changing it from monistic to plural or even hyper-plural. This is what leads to the issues of limits, with out a denominator or better a comparible subject a monism is nothing and immeasurable. Therefore, it cannot be call finite or infinite.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tuffy</i><br />i have come to believe that the universe is infinite and eternal, unfathomable (to us) and majestic, not requiring a creator.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> You may find it interesting that the Baha'i Faith agrees with this statement, with some modifications on the "creator" part... []
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Baha'u'llah</i><br />Know assuredly that God's creation hath existed from eternity, and will continue to exist forever. Its beginning hath had no beginning, and its end knoweth no end. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
The Writings of the Baha'i Faith also make mention of a few other things, like life on other planets:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Baha'u'llah</i><br />The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the life of this earth, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If you aren't particularly interested in religion, that's probably enough...

<i>However, if you want to read more, you could start with this essay and collection of quotes: [url] bahai-library.com/unpubl.articles/extraterrestrials.html [/url]. About the religion, you can read: [url] www.bahai.org [/url]. Since this is not a religious forum, we need to stick to the current topic.</i>

rj, one thing that has been re-confirmed during this short chat about the universe is the spanish saying "cada mente es un mundo" or "each mind is a world". my idea is that humans on see a little of what is there, like our visible light in comparison to the full range of radiation, i guess it is. we are a part of this thing, universe, and our limited perception of it is neither here nor there. one might think that this idea of "being", "suchness" would take the pressure off of me to do anything, be anything...but the nuts and bolts of living are immediate and overpowering. i wish that the idea of the infinity of space could really take over my mind and eternity guide my steps...but alas, human, all too human. i'm rambling but...

glittle, i had written a long note and my computer crashed. mainly the baha'i faith is similar to secular humanism or buddhism in that compassion and the reduction of suffering are desireable ends. human nature, being subject to evolution may be ready for a global cooperative community and it may be several thousands years from now. i really don't see much improvement in the past several thousand. also, the aspect of the illuminati or international bankers being able to run things better is there were a one world government is a real possibility.

The universe has to be finite, like every one of us.
You may check this
www.world-mysteries.com/toi_esavov.htm

peter, i've read several finite models of the universe but to me it just doesn't compute. this is something we will never know but i don't see the comparison between "us", finite organisms and "the universe". "has to be" wouldn't be appropriate for arguing either for finity or infinty, in my opinion. i prefer to say that "i could be wrong". what are the chances that a biological organism on an obscure planet in the milky way galaxy might "get it right"? anyway, i vote for infinte, eternal, creatorless, humans being animals/things.