infinite, eternal universe

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tuffy</i>
<br />i have come to believe that the universe is infinite and eternal, unfathomable (to us) and majestic, not requiring a creator. that humans are biological organisms, neither significant, nor insignificant. the big bang makes sense only in an oscillating universe as a possible stage in it's evolution but to say that the big bang had something to do with the genesis of the universe is, for me, absurd. for example, "what banged?" or "something cannot arise from nothing". i wonder if deists really understand what they are believing when they think that some entity created something that we are unable to even fathom? the universe is one thing and we are a part of it. to me, this is the double-edged sword. in one sense we belong and are perfectly natural. on the other, thinking about eternity and infinity can cause some consternation (existential neurosis). i could be wrong about these things but if you look at it in terms of probability, this makes sense to me.
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Oh phooey.

You don’t know that there was “nothing” before our universe banged. Ours just might be one of many, in greater space.

After all, we are on a planet, in a solar system, in a galaxy, in a local group, in a universe. There might be much more to greater space than what we can currently see. Just a hundred years ago, astronomers didn’t even know for sure that we are in an independent autonomous galaxy. We might also be inside an independent autonomous “universe” too, a spherical one, inside “greater space” that contains billions of them.

The great dictators, serial killers, and mass murderers of the world have always thought of humans as being “insignificant”, and I think that’s a very dangerous way to think.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DAVID</i>
<br />You don’t know that there was “nothing” before our universe banged.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Tuffy didn't claim there was. But the Big Bang is an ongoing explosion of space, not an explosion of matter into pre-existing space. So BB implies that nothing existed before it happened, the "cyclic" variant of BB notwithstanding.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ours just might be one of many, in greater space.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">No fair changing the meanings of words to suit your wishes, the way science fiction authors often do. In astronomy, "universe" means "everything that exists". So the expression "other universes" has no defined meaning.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There might be much more to greater space than what we can currently see.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Indeed, there might, as tuffy was saying. But BB says not because we are now seeing almost back to the beginning of time and space.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The great dictators, serial killers, and mass murderers of the world have always thought of humans as being “insignificant”, and I think that’s a very dangerous way to think.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Speaking as a well-known mass murder of mainstream ideas, I have to agree with tuffy on this one also. It is pretty difficult to contemplate the vastness of the universe without seeing ourselves as insignificant to the larger picture. For example, nearby space is so vast that even with 100,000 asteroids big enough to destroy a city moving at random across Earth's orbit, actual hits are historically rare. A volume of space centered on the Sun and just enclosing the orbit of Pluto is big enough to house all 200 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy without touching. A larger sphere just enclosing the Oort cloud is big enough to contain all the stars in all the galaxies in the observable universe. Yet that sphere actually contains only a single star, and it is still a long way to the next nearest star.

Our significance is only local in space, in time, and in scale. -|Tom|-

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tvanflandern</i>
<br />No fair changing the meanings of words to suit your wishes, the way science fiction authors often do. In astronomy, "universe" means "everything that exists". So the expression "other universes" has no defined meaning.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Oh, come on Tom!

In the old days the word “world” meant “everything” and even in the 19th Century many astronomers still thought our Milky Way represented the entire “world” or “universe”. Then in the early 20th Century they found out that our galaxy is like a “separate world” of its own or an “island universe”.

So it doesn’t matter what I call “greater space”. I suppose I could call it a “mega-verse” or something like that.

The idea that “space and time” came into being for everything and every place only at the moment of the big bang, can be looked on in a completely different philosophical way. For you and me, “space and time” came into being the day we were born.

I know I’m “insignificant” to the “larger picture”, but I’m also an earth creature, and while I’m here on earth I don’t want to be thought of as being “insignificant”.

Of course, this is your message board, and while I’m on it, I might possibly concede that in that regard I am somewhat less “significant” than you, on this local level.

phooey, i don't believe there was ever "nothing". that's is my argument for an eternal universe. it doesn't matter how much "matter" is out there, to me. the idea is that there is no end to it. in other words, the concept of the infinity of space. and i say that humans are neither significant, nor insignificant. this is a polite way of saying that being humans we can't see the forest for the trees, in terms of our own existence. if we are animals, which i believe, then we are the same as a dog or amoeba and then, essentially, the same as a tree or virus and then, the same as any matter. i see the big dicotomy as being space and matter, which makes up the one and only universe.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DAVID</i>
<br />it doesn’t matter what I call “greater space”. I suppose I could call it a “mega-verse” or something like that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My objection was that "other universes" is undefined and contradicts the definition we now have. You are welcome to introduce any term for any purpose, as long as you provide a clear and specific definition.

Vague, loosely defined concepts lead inevitably to misunderstandings and discussions at cross-purposes. We try to avoid that when it is possible.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The idea that “space and time” came into being for everything and every place only at the moment of the big bang, can be looked on in a completely different philosophical way. For you and me, “space and time” came into being the day we were born.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Don't mistake my descriptions as support for the BB. But it is what it is, and an explosion into space it is not.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I know I’m “insignificant” to the “larger picture”, but I’m also an earth creature, and while I’m here on earth I don’t want to be thought of as being “insignificant”.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">We are all significant locally, I agree. I was merely taking exception to any implication that we are somehow (undefined) more significant than that. I think that is wishful thinking.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Of course, this is your message board, and while I’m on it, I might possibly concede that in that regard I am somewhat less “significant” than you, on this local level.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Please don't feel reticent, much less intimidated. Well-thought-out, divergent opinions are always welcome here. Consider my remarks as a way to urge you to clarify your views and define your terms for better communicability.

But I can't resist ending with another jibe. You said "The great dictators, serial killers, and mass murderers of the world have always thought of humans as being 'insignificant', and I think that’s a very dangerous way to think." By your standards, I have a dangerous mind. And by your standards, you'd be right about that. If you hang out here, I can't assure you that your self-significance won't do some shrinking too. [}] -|Tom|-

Tuffy, congradulations on a very well said comment on the physical infinity that we live in....The Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle is the infinite loop that goes infinitely in both direction- past and future....Be prepared to NOT CONVINCE any so-called metaphysical or spiritual enthusiasts. It's too threatening for religion to abandon myths like heaven or hell, or the afterlife. These simply don't "fit into" the physical continuum that permeats all realities....I've always thought that if you want to know where you go after you die, just witness the birth of your child- another revelation I believe. What do you think?