EXISTENCE (not creation) Ex Nihilo

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Messiah</i>
APPLAUSE ! ! !
Mathematics - our most exact science - deals predominately with quantitative values. But even in mathematical equations qualitative properties must be dealt with.

Consider the simple equation: (+1)+(-1)=Ø

The quantitative value 'Ø' is absolute - neither positive or negative. But any other value such as |1| must be assigned a positive or negative quality in order to have meaning to the function. If you don't believe trying to get a quality to perform like a quantity can be a problem, solve the equation sqrt(-1).

Mathematics requires two equivalent values or sets of values be assigned opposite (positive vs negative) qualities in order to be considered countervalent. But when it comes to QUALitative values such cannot be assumed to be the case.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'm not sure I understand your meaning of "qualitative" in the context of math. The reason why |1| must be given a sign to satisfy your example equation is because | | is an <b>operator</b>. Using the |1| in the equation <b>changes the equation</b>, so of course you may have to change something to get it work out.


JR

Tom,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>This is a science MB and I was speaking in the context of physics, where miracles are forbidden as explanations. This is because, once miracles are allowed as explanations, inquiry ends because everything can be explained as simply "an act of God". So Creation ex nihilo is inconceivable without a miracle by anyone with a disciplined mind and logical thought processes. From nothing, nothing comes.
quote:</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[yellow]<b>ANS: Here is where you and I have a disagreement. N----&gt;(+s)+(-s) is a statement of a natural occurance, which makes sense if you simply conclude we do not yet understand it. It is not and does not infer miracles. It is mathematically indicated as a natural process not an act of Gods, etc. We need only to try and understand how bifurcating "Nothing" can result in +/- "Somethings".</b>/yellow]

"Imagination is more important than Knowledge" -- Albert Einstien

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mac</i>
<br />Tom,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>This is a science MB and I was speaking in the context of physics, where miracles are forbidden as explanations. This is because, once miracles are allowed as explanations, inquiry ends because everything can be explained as simply "an act of God". So Creation ex nihilo is inconceivable without a miracle by anyone with a disciplined mind and logical thought processes. From nothing, nothing comes.
quote:</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[yellow]<b>ANS: Here is where you and I have a disagreement. N----&gt;(+s)+(-s) is a statement of a natural occurance, which makes sense if you simply conclude we do not yet understand it. It is not and does not infer miracles. It is mathematically indicated as a natural process not an act of Gods, etc. We need only to try and understand how bifurcating "Nothing" can result in +/- "Somethings".</b>/yellow]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
May I assume you agree based on your reasoning that infinities may exist in nature (seperate from our minds) because they are mathematically indicated even if you do not understand it.


JR

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jrich</i>
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I'm not sure I understand your meaning of "qualitative" in the context of math. The reason why |1| must be given a sign to satisfy your example equation is because | | is an <b>operator</b>. Using the |1| in the equation <b>changes the equation</b>, so of course you may have to change something to get it work out.

JR
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
|1| is a quantitative value - it will always be |1| no matter what you do with it, it will have the identity property.

Equations take into consideration both QUANtitative and QUALitative factors. They group/parce/otherwise operate upon quantitative values. The operations they perform are simply bivalent in nature - positive or negative - nothing in between - nothing else. Valence is a QUALity they assign to perform operations.

QUANtitatively, there is no difference between +1 and -1. The quantities in question are both |1|.

QUALitatively they are diametrically opposed.

It is my contention that the realm of mathematics is only two-dimensional - locked into bivalence due to the quantitative considerations. QUALitative values are more than bivalent.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mac</i>
<br />ANS: Here is where you and I have a disagreement. N----&gt;(+s)+(-s) is a statement of a natural occurance, which makes sense if you simply conclude we do not yet understand it. It is not and does not infer miracles. It is mathematically indicated as a natural process not an act of Gods, etc. We need only to try and understand how bifurcating "Nothing" can result in +/- "Somethings".

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Logic - itself - is BASED on it, especially mathematical logic. It is no coincidence that mathematics encodes logic into a device called an equation which requires its elements be equivalent on opposite sides of the argument.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Messiah</i>
|1| is a quantitative value - it will always be |1| no matter what you do with it, it will have the identity property.

Equations take into consideration both QUANtitative and QUALitative factors. They group/parce/otherwise operate upon quantitative values. The operations they perform are simply bivalent in nature - positive or negative - nothing in between - nothing else. Valence is a QUALity they assign to perform operations.

QUANtitatively, there is no difference between +1 and -1. The quantities in question are both |1|.

QUALitatively they are diametrically opposed.

It is my contention that the realm of mathematics is only two-dimensional - locked into bivalence due to the quantitative considerations. QUALitative values are more than bivalent.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I don't think you'll see it, but you have just made my point about this being a game of mathematical semantics.


JR