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Requiem for Relativity
16 years 4 months ago #15353
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
Sloat, If a central mass of a system suddenly explodes in a SN event and a large fraction of the mass is no longer at the center of the system then the orbits of everything in the system are going to be altered even the Oort orbits-don't you think? How does the system survive? The mass is free of the system because of the event and its future is unknown.
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16 years 4 months ago #15355
by Stoat
Replied by Stoat on topic Reply from Robert Turner
Hi Jim, lets build a scale model of our solar system. Yeah I know you hate models but this model often surprises people in pubs. The sun is a billiard ball, where is mercury? Just about everyone points a finger almost touching the billiard ball. Mercury would be two metres away from the ball. The Earth seven metres. Jupiter would be forty metres, and pluto three hundred metres. The nearest star would be two thousand kilometres distant.
So, lets have our billiard ball go supernova. If I knew that billions of tonnes of hydrogen was about to hit me, travelling at thousands of kilometres per second, i dont think i would bother getting out of bed. It would simply vaporise the inner planets. Jupiter and Saturn would gravitationally respond to the suns centre of gravity, at first. However, once they were inside of the explosion envelope, most of the mass of the sun having past them at a great lick, they would flick away like a stone from a sling shot.
Past about twenty a.u. the gravitational influence of the explosion wall cannot compete with the influence of what remains of the sun. Orbits will alter but they will still be orbits of the parent body. It would be wrong to think that the wall is now fairly tolerable, it would still destroy Neptune and pluto, though there might be a few rocks left from Neptune.
I suppose we could do the sums to see whether the dirty snowballs that make up the Oort belt would survive, that might while away a pleasant hour. Barbarossa would survive and stay in orbit.
Again though, this cannot happen to our sun. Its a moot point about stars that become type one supernova. Do they have planetary systems? Is our solar system the result of being part of a failed binary system? We have about two hundred solar systems on record at the moment. They all seem to have gas giants close in to their suns. We need a new telescope in space to try and find terrestrial type planets.
Type two supernova must play their part in Joes ideas but not so much as to throw any of his calculations out of whack. Supernova in stellar nurseries will initiate star formation through the dust clouds and deliver stores of heavier elements. They cannot deliver chunks of planets, because they havent had time to build them.
So, lets have our billiard ball go supernova. If I knew that billions of tonnes of hydrogen was about to hit me, travelling at thousands of kilometres per second, i dont think i would bother getting out of bed. It would simply vaporise the inner planets. Jupiter and Saturn would gravitationally respond to the suns centre of gravity, at first. However, once they were inside of the explosion envelope, most of the mass of the sun having past them at a great lick, they would flick away like a stone from a sling shot.
Past about twenty a.u. the gravitational influence of the explosion wall cannot compete with the influence of what remains of the sun. Orbits will alter but they will still be orbits of the parent body. It would be wrong to think that the wall is now fairly tolerable, it would still destroy Neptune and pluto, though there might be a few rocks left from Neptune.
I suppose we could do the sums to see whether the dirty snowballs that make up the Oort belt would survive, that might while away a pleasant hour. Barbarossa would survive and stay in orbit.
Again though, this cannot happen to our sun. Its a moot point about stars that become type one supernova. Do they have planetary systems? Is our solar system the result of being part of a failed binary system? We have about two hundred solar systems on record at the moment. They all seem to have gas giants close in to their suns. We need a new telescope in space to try and find terrestrial type planets.
Type two supernova must play their part in Joes ideas but not so much as to throw any of his calculations out of whack. Supernova in stellar nurseries will initiate star formation through the dust clouds and deliver stores of heavier elements. They cannot deliver chunks of planets, because they havent had time to build them.
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16 years 4 months ago #15358
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
Sloat, I don't hate models-my issue is in the overuse of models and making gods of them as is the case with the BB model. The thinking process is a captive of this modeling. Anyway, if the central mass of a system gains or loses mass everything orbiting that center is effected so Neptune and whatever is in the Oort belt is going to excape if the sun happened to lose most of its mass. And back to SN events-the ejected mass from the event that came our way would have an effect on the mechanics of the solar system even if it passed through leaving none of its mass and it seem likely some of the mass would be captured by the gravity system of the sun. So, if there is no way to know how many SN events have occured and effected the solar system during the past 10 billion yeaars why not just use the probibility that SN events have had an effect.
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- Joe Keller
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16 years 4 months ago #20134
by Joe Keller
Replied by Joe Keller on topic Reply from
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />...The thinking process is a captive of this modeling. Anyway, if the central mass of a system gains or loses mass everything orbiting that center is affected so Neptune and whatever is in the Oort belt is going to escape if the sun happened to lose most of its mass. ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
These are interesting concepts.
<br />...The thinking process is a captive of this modeling. Anyway, if the central mass of a system gains or loses mass everything orbiting that center is affected so Neptune and whatever is in the Oort belt is going to escape if the sun happened to lose most of its mass. ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
These are interesting concepts.
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16 years 4 months ago #15359
by nemesis
Replied by nemesis on topic Reply from
"Past about twenty a.u. the gravitational influence of the explosion wall cannot compete with the influence of what remains of the sun. Orbits will alter but they will still be orbits of the parent body. It would be wrong to think that the wall is now fairly tolerable, it would still destroy Neptune and pluto, though there might be a few rocks left from Neptune."
Is there any hard data about this "explosion wall" being able to "destroy" a large planet at Neptune's distance? Most of a supernova's energy is spent as electromagnetic radiation. I recall reading somewhere that every star in the galaxy could fit in a spherical shell the size of the solar system without touching. Space is big, really big.
Is there any hard data about this "explosion wall" being able to "destroy" a large planet at Neptune's distance? Most of a supernova's energy is spent as electromagnetic radiation. I recall reading somewhere that every star in the galaxy could fit in a spherical shell the size of the solar system without touching. Space is big, really big.
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16 years 4 months ago #20929
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
nem, The SN event must be more than just light because the star before and after is a very different star. The event must eject a large fraction of the mass of the star before the event-or not--?
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