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meta model assumptions
- Astrodelugeologist
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20 years 11 months ago #8060
by Astrodelugeologist
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Just a correction: The Meta Model does make assumption. It makes a starting assumption and then reasons deductively based on that assumption. The beauty of the Meta Model is that it reasons deductively (forwards) rather than inductively (inductive reasoning don't lead to a unique result), so that we can be more sure of its merit.
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- tvanflandern
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20 years 11 months ago #8372
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />How does the model deduce explosions of stars and planets? I see no way for this to happen in the real universe. But, in all models it does.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In MM, gravitons have such high speeds and are so numerous that they are continually depositing energy in massive bodies. So MM has the opposite problem of other models -- how to keep large bodies stable over long periods because their natural tendency is to accumulate too much energy too quickly and explode. The shedding of the excess heat is via elysium, and is explained in our MRB article "Planetary explosion mechanisms". Planets and stars only get into trouble when something interferes with the free flow of elysium through these bodies.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Astrodelugeologist</i>
<br />Just a correction: The Meta Model does make assumption. It makes a starting assumption and then reasons deductively based on that assumption. The beauty of the Meta Model is that it reasons deductively (forwards) rather than inductively (inductive reasoning don't lead to a unique result), so that we can be more sure of its merit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Jim was quoting me saying that MM does not use assumptions. During my career I tried every assumption that I or others could think of, and none of them worked.
To develop a model, one needs a starting position and tools, but one does not need assumptions. The starting position for MM is a total void and something non-void. Both are specifically devoid of properties and assumptions. The tools available to advance from that starting position are logic and the principles of physics, themselves products of logic and not subject to change.
You could make the argument semantic by asserting that the principles of physics are assumptions. But that is not the ordinary meaning of the word because they are arrived at by reasoning, as explained in chapter 20 of <i>Dark Matter...</i>. Any violation of a principle of physics would require a miracle, and would thereby prove that this is not a genuine reality, but something like a holodeck simulation. That gives the principles of physics a status that differentiates them from pure assumptions. -|Tom|-
<br />How does the model deduce explosions of stars and planets? I see no way for this to happen in the real universe. But, in all models it does.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In MM, gravitons have such high speeds and are so numerous that they are continually depositing energy in massive bodies. So MM has the opposite problem of other models -- how to keep large bodies stable over long periods because their natural tendency is to accumulate too much energy too quickly and explode. The shedding of the excess heat is via elysium, and is explained in our MRB article "Planetary explosion mechanisms". Planets and stars only get into trouble when something interferes with the free flow of elysium through these bodies.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Astrodelugeologist</i>
<br />Just a correction: The Meta Model does make assumption. It makes a starting assumption and then reasons deductively based on that assumption. The beauty of the Meta Model is that it reasons deductively (forwards) rather than inductively (inductive reasoning don't lead to a unique result), so that we can be more sure of its merit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Jim was quoting me saying that MM does not use assumptions. During my career I tried every assumption that I or others could think of, and none of them worked.
To develop a model, one needs a starting position and tools, but one does not need assumptions. The starting position for MM is a total void and something non-void. Both are specifically devoid of properties and assumptions. The tools available to advance from that starting position are logic and the principles of physics, themselves products of logic and not subject to change.
You could make the argument semantic by asserting that the principles of physics are assumptions. But that is not the ordinary meaning of the word because they are arrived at by reasoning, as explained in chapter 20 of <i>Dark Matter...</i>. Any violation of a principle of physics would require a miracle, and would thereby prove that this is not a genuine reality, but something like a holodeck simulation. That gives the principles of physics a status that differentiates them from pure assumptions. -|Tom|-
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20 years 11 months ago #8377
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
I don't want to get bogged down in semantics or the meaning of words so I try to keep statements as simple as I can. In the MM model energy is absorbed through a process involving gravatrons? And then the star or planet gets too hot? And then the object explodes? Is that more or less the secquence of events? In the BB model the star burns mass through several nuclear processes and then explodes. So, the basic process for the event is different in MM & BB models? Keep in mind there is nothing in the real world that leads me to think any of this can really happen out side the model or is there data that supports BB or MM in this detail(in my studies anyway).
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20 years 11 months ago #7996
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />In the MM model energy is absorbed through a process involving gravitons? And then the star or planet gets too hot? And then the object explodes? Is that more or less the secquence of events?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In your descriptions, replace "gets too hot" with "absorbs too much energy". A better analogy would be like a pressure cooker being overheated until it explodes.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In the BB model the star burns mass through several nuclear processes and then explodes. So, the basic process for the event is different in MM & BB models?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">As different as day and night.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Keep in mind there is nothing in the real world that leads me to think any of this can really happen out side the model or is there data that supports BB or MM in this detail(in my studies anyway).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Do you think thermonuclear explosions are a Hollywood fiction? What about novas and supernovas?
As for MM, my book <i>Dark Matter, Missing Planets and New Comets</i> has five chapters devoted to exploded planet evidence. -|Tom|-
<br />In the MM model energy is absorbed through a process involving gravitons? And then the star or planet gets too hot? And then the object explodes? Is that more or less the secquence of events?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">In your descriptions, replace "gets too hot" with "absorbs too much energy". A better analogy would be like a pressure cooker being overheated until it explodes.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In the BB model the star burns mass through several nuclear processes and then explodes. So, the basic process for the event is different in MM & BB models?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">As different as day and night.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Keep in mind there is nothing in the real world that leads me to think any of this can really happen out side the model or is there data that supports BB or MM in this detail(in my studies anyway).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Do you think thermonuclear explosions are a Hollywood fiction? What about novas and supernovas?
As for MM, my book <i>Dark Matter, Missing Planets and New Comets</i> has five chapters devoted to exploded planet evidence. -|Tom|-
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20 years 11 months ago #4117
by Jim
Replied by Jim on topic Reply from
I would like to see data about nova and SN events. It is too bad so much modeling is done with the tiny bit that is known about these events. The nuclear stuff done to date is about as silly as the models being offered to explain the reactions observed. It is no different than what was done a thousand years ago when the Flat Earth model was popular other than the model has been changed. At some point the data will resolve these issues.
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20 years 10 months ago #8002
by tvanflandern
Replied by tvanflandern on topic Reply from Tom Van Flandern
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim</i>
<br />I would like to see data about nova and SN events.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">You are always asking for data that requires a specialized technical background to understand. But somehow, I doubt that being given a set of supernova light curves and spectra would mean much to you. Am I wrong?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is too bad so much modeling is done with the tiny bit that is known about these events.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Whole books have been written about these types of events. You could start there.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The nuclear stuff done to date is about as silly as the models being offered to explain the reactions observed. It is no different than what was done a thousand years ago when the Flat Earth model was popular other than the model has been changed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The residents of Hiroshima might beg to differ.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At some point the data will resolve these issues.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Some of us think that data has already resolved these issues. I gather that you think we are being naive? -|Tom|-
<br />I would like to see data about nova and SN events.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">You are always asking for data that requires a specialized technical background to understand. But somehow, I doubt that being given a set of supernova light curves and spectra would mean much to you. Am I wrong?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is too bad so much modeling is done with the tiny bit that is known about these events.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Whole books have been written about these types of events. You could start there.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The nuclear stuff done to date is about as silly as the models being offered to explain the reactions observed. It is no different than what was done a thousand years ago when the Flat Earth model was popular other than the model has been changed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The residents of Hiroshima might beg to differ.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At some point the data will resolve these issues.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Some of us think that data has already resolved these issues. I gather that you think we are being naive? -|Tom|-
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