To coin a phrase.... MetaTechnology

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by modu</i>
<br />I wasnt refering to the shape of the object in general, my idea is changing the size/mass of the object in a GIVEN DIRECTION, which certainly should make a difference ...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">No, it shouldn't, because there is no directionality about size/mass. I'm guessing there is still something incomplete about your understanding of pushing gravity. But I can't guess what it is because your comments and questions don't tell me what your mental picture is, but only that your mental picture is different from mine.

For example, you said: "According to 'push gravity', gravitional force is pushing and gets blocked by a mass. Therefore placing the cylinder object horizontally over a secondery object will block less gravitons coming from above then placing it vertically." But that is certainly not the case. Every single atom blocks a certain number of gravitons. Let's say each atom blocks N gravitons. Now assume the cylinder (or any shape) contains M atoms. Then the total number of gravitons blocked is N*M, regardless of the shape of the blocking body (your cylinder).

This ignores the distance effect. But if we considered the distance effect of a cylinder resting on an object, then the vertical cylinder blocks fewer gravitons from hitting the object underneath because the vertical cylinder's atoms are, on average, farther away from the object than a horizontal cylinder's atoms would be.

In short, there is absolutely no difference between pushing gravity and Newtonian gravity for bodies of ordinary density. Any difference would require such high densities that a "shielding" effect sets in. A shielding effect means a body is so dense that a single graviton can no longer almost always fly through the body without hitting anything.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">... otherwise replacing the moon with a tennis ball should have no effect on earth gravity<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Replacing the Moon with a tennis ball does have no effect on Earth's gravity. It changes only the gravity from the Moon that raises tides on Earth, which would no longer exist with a tennis ball there.

So I still don't see what you are trying to say. -|Tom|-

Hi Tom
I'll try and explain myself a bit better (hopefully)
I do grasp the idea that an object will block/absorb certain amount of gravitons with proportion to ita mass/density only (regardless of its shape)
It is my understanding that garvitional diferrence (push or pull) are the result of diference in garviton impinging on a certain object from different direction (if more impinging from "below" then from "above" the result will be a push "down" so to speak)
Now while an elongated object (such as a cilinder) will absorb/block same amount of graviton in whichever position, one have to allow for the effect of the direction in which gravitons are being blocked in relation to a secondary object. as you stated any object will block "N" amout of gravitons (depends on its density), lets give "N" a number,in our given object, say 10 graviton (just an arbitary number for demonstaraition use). lets simplify further and say that the object is one meter long and and for every 10 centimeter one graviton is being blocked, and lets say that secondary object is a cube with dimensions of 10 centimeter wide by 10 long by 10 high, placing that given object horizantely over the secondary object will block ONLY ONE graviton coming directly from above and nine gravitons that are coming at an angle (and whould have less push effect on the secondary object if they were not blocked), if on the other end we will place the cilinder object verticaly over the secondary object 10 gravitons coming DIRECTLY FROM ABOVE will get blocked and therefore the "push" effect should be smaller.
ps
your comment about the tennis ball was quite pointless, i broght it up in conotation to push gravity (the moon blocking more gravitons impinging on earth then a tennis ball), which i suspect you relised, so please dont patronize me
once more, thanks for your time and paitence

modu

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by modu</i>
<br />please don't patronize me<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I'm struggling to understand you. And because I do not understand, I'm trying to cover all possibilities with each reply.

Perhaps someone else can understand and either answer, or explain your question to me so I can answer. Any attempt I would make now, lacking understanding, would probably appear to be more patronizing. Nonetheless, I will risk insulting you further and try one more set of general remarks.

In your latest example, you bring in direction, which is not normally considered. Newton showed long ago that, for purposes of gravitation, a body's mass can, to good approximation, be thought of as all concentrated at its center of mass. The same argument applies to pushing gravity.

But if you are really talking about the tiny, tiny effect of the shape of a body (and there is one), that too is the same for Newtonian gravity and pushing gravity. Or do you see some reason why the two might not be the same?

The reason for this "sameness" is simple. Consider atom X in one body acting on atom Y in another body. The force between atoms is the same whether X and Y pull on each other or are pushed toward each other. So no matter how many atoms you have or how you arrange them, the mutual pulls or pushes are the same, so there cannot be any difference between Newtonian gravity and pushing gravity. -|Tom|-

Hi Tom
Thanks for you prompt reply
I am "talking about the tiny, tiny effect of the shape of a body", and i do see a reason for the effect to be different in pushing gravity and newtonian gravity.
hopefully you do get my "mental picture" concerning push gravity and agree that vertical position will cause less push gravity being impinged on secondery object then an horizantal position (tiny differnt as it may be), resulting in seemingly MORE "pull gravity" from a newtonian point of view.
on the other hand setting push gravity aside altogether, and approaching the all concept from newtonian gravity point of view alone, placing the object verticaly over secondary object wiil cause LESS "pull gravity" as the centre of gravity of ciliner object is further from secondary object then if one will place it horizantly (in my example of one meter rod and 10 centimeter diameter, when placing it horizantly, distant from centre of gravity between both objects will be 10 centimeter -
5+5, when placing it veritcaly distant will be 55 centimeter - 50+5).
is that not correct ?
as far as insulting me, you do not, i understand your position and accept your superiority of knowledj in that matter, and hope you'll stil take the time to answer my simple qustions.
Thanks




modu

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by modu</i>
<br />hopefully you ... agree that a vertical position will cause less push gravity being impinged on a secondary object than a horizontal position (tiny difference as it may be), resulting in seemingly MORE "pull gravity" from a Newtonian point of view.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">No, I do not agree. The vertical cylinder is also farther from the secondary object, and therefore receives fewer pushes toward the secondary object. It is exactly the same as the case for pulling atoms. For every pull in the Newtonian case, there is an equal and opposite push in the pushing gravity case.

Earlier, you said "placing that given object horizontally over the secondary object will block ONLY ONE graviton coming directly from above and nine gravitons that are coming at an angle (and whould have less push effect on the secondary object if they were not blocked)..." Well, if a cylinder is long and placed horizontally over a small ball, most of the mass of the cylinder causes sideways forces on the ball that get cancelled by mass symmetrically on the other end of the cylinder. So even in the Newtonian case, this produces less force than if the cylinder were crushed down to the size of the ball. Again, there's no difference between pushing and pulling gravity.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"... if on the other end we will place the cylinder object vertically over the secondary object 10 gravitons coming DIRECTLY FROM ABOVE will get blocked and therefore the "push" effect should be smaller."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">The push effect is smaller and therefore the force is less, just as in the Newtonian case, because the greater distance. That effect would be expected to dominate the effect of eliminating canceling force components from the horizontal case.

But maybe you meant to say "larger" where you said "smaller" because all the pushes are vertical and don't get cancelled. Then I would have at least understood the question. For both pushing gravity and Newtonian gravity, a vertical cylinder exerts less force on a horizontal ball because its atoms are farther away on average, but more force because all its atoms pull vertically instead of having canceling horizontal effects.

In all cases, pushing and pulling views give identical forces, atom by atom. Without need to figure out what the net force is, can you perhaps see the equivalence by reducing any case to the summation of forces between all pairs of individual atoms? -|Tom|-

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your time and effort, it is greatly appriciated
I do understand the concept a bit better now, althogh i stil strugle somewhat with the vertical positioning, i was under the assumption that in push gravity distant did not play the same role as in in newtonian gravity but yielded same result beacause of le sage shadowing effect, my (apparently wrong) conclusion was that one could get shadowing effects that will differ from newtonian gravity by manipulating the shape of the "shadower".
Regards

modu