Paradoxes and Dilemmas

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>...any thoughts on how to go about building this?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Samizdat,

Here a little quote from a preprint arxiv.org/abs/physics/0209023 by Giovanni Modanese:

<i>It resembles the coherence of a
laser beam, even though in this case the beam is
probably only virtual in the sense that its existence is
limited in time and it does not have an absolute
intensity. A strict analogy with lasers is impossible
because the resonating cavity is missing. </i>

This responds to a message posted by Makis in the "gravity effects" topic.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The current state of Physics can be described by a selective application of causality in a way to suit ones specific goal of describing what is common truth, example the earth circles the sun. But if you take proper account for cause and effect relationships, their circular arguments break down, that is their models are wrong, not reality is wrong.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

It is dizzying how, whenever we describe something that makes common sense to most of us, Makis whips out the claim that it is "circular reasoning". Despite being challenged to explain himself, he never has. I see nothing circular going on except in the repetitiveness of this conversation.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>during the debate I had with TVF…<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Without stated goals or rules, with logical syllogisms eschewed, citations ignored, experiments and observations denigrated -- it all seemed more like a mud-wrestling session than a debate to me. But whatever.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>… his central argument was the barycenter. Now, in another argument he tells you to forget the barycenter, just because experimental evidence denies it.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

We also have a continuing language problem. With the ordinary English meaning of words, neither this false claim nor several others have any counterpart in reality. I assume it is a language problem because the alternative would be that Makis just made up the claim that I said "experimental evidence denies the barycenter" to make his position look sensible and mine look bad. But I certainly did not say that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Attacking someone on the grounds that he or she may lack "approved knowledge" is a dark ages court accusation that some people use even today to base their sentences.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Let's get our facts straight. This Message Board, the organization behind it, and most participants here encourage challenges to the fundamentals of the field. That is what we are all about. Makis, and occasionally some of his associates, have been and are being criticized for disorderly, incomprehensible thought processes, not for challenges to the fundamentals. And he has been criticized for making specious arguments about subjects he has not studied, which seem at times to include all of physics. Moreover, he has unfairly exhausted the patience of participants by being unfamiliar with or capriciously changing the accepted definitions of terms and the ordinary meanings of concepts.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Usually, those doing that have no simple and persuasive way of supporting their counterarguments. In logic, this is a well known FALLACY called: APPEAL TO AUTHORITY<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

What authority? An appeal to authority says that someone must be right because of his status or influence, which no one here would ever claim. But it is not an appeal to authority to stop Makis from making false claims about someone's position that he is unfamiliar with. A prerequisite for participating in a discussion (or a "debate") is familiarity with the issues. Makis showed that he lacked that familiarity and was uninterested in remedying that lack. I reject this APPEAL TO IGNORANCE as having any merit, as if "uncontaminated minds" somehow had an advantage over educated minds.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Well, I have bad news for TVF and anyone else that thinks in the case of Gravity there is authority around. THERE IS NONE.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Agreed. But I have had news for Makis too. There is plenty of IGNORANCE around. I kept suggesting that he read and become familiar with the basics of the subjects he wished to discuss. But he apparently preferred his virgin state of mind. Sadly for Makis, virginity is not conducive to fertility in either reproductive or intellectual pursuits.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So I ask the highest Judge of All to drop the charges against me, Jim, Patrick or anyone else that has been said to have questioned the AUTHORITY.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

That highest authority of all would be Makis, I presume?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I rest my case (for good).<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I have tried to say this gently, and I have tried to say it firmly. Makis's appeals to universal agnosticism are an embarrassment to those with orderly thought processes. I hope he does take a long time-out and think. I hope he learns to organize his thoughts into a pattern were there is a logical flow from one step to the next, and base them on clear, intellectually sound premises. He should then test these ideas out on peers to see if they communicate well to others. When Makis has mastered the art of communication, he will be welcomed back to discuss whatever is on his mind. But the discussions here have not been productive. We cannot learn from him because his arguments are not coherent, his thoughts not ordered, his premises not acceptable, his syllogisms not evident. Likewise, he has apparently learned nothing from us about what he needs to do to remedy his communication failures. (Notice this doesn't even address the substance of issues. His failure is in communicating at all, not in defending his scientific positions, whatever they might be.)

Someday we may come to appreciate what Makis was trying to tell us, or he may come to appreciate what we were trying to tell him. But that day is not today. There seems to be no point in continuing. We have too little in common, starting with the meanings of the words we use in these messages, to be able to exchange ideas. So good luck to Makis in all his endeavors, and good-bye. -|Tom|-

Makis,

Now you have gone too far. I'd vote for your permanent ban and deletion of your posts and replies to them; they are profoundly useless and a waste of bandwidth, anyway. Guess you got the message, because I do not use any obscure acronyms here.

P.S. You can delete your posts yourself by using that trash can icon in the post header that shows when you are logged on.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> ... I'd vote for your (Makis') permanent ban and deletion of your posts and replies to them ... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I don't know. I'm reluctant to go to that extreme. He's just playing with us, after all. NO ONE is really that dumb.

But, I <b>would</b> like to find a way to discourage [stuff] like this. And while discouraging it, keep it sort of off to one side. That way if he or anyone else we are "shuning" has a change of heart we could put them "on probation" and see what happens.

Of course, then we have to deal with them creating a new account and starting the joke process all over. But it ought to be very easy to spot them after the first round.

So, how about this:

Set up a special "Retard's" thread (perhaps labeled as such, just for grins?). When someone has spent enough time playing jokes on us that most of us are tired of it we could ask the moderator to move their existing posts (and replies) to this thread and to also automatically re-direct any future posts to this thread.

The subject summary for the thread would explain its purpose, recommend to all that they read each post, but also recommend to all that they think long and hard before replying to anything in it. No prohibitions, though.

Adjustments to this idea are solicited, as are other alternatives.

Regards,
LB

PS - it will be interesting to see what Makis has in the way of suggestions ...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So, how about this:

Set up a special "Retard's" thread (perhaps labeled as such, just for grins?). When someone has spent enough time playing jokes on us that most of us are tired of it we could ask the moderator to move their existing posts (and replies) to this thread and to also automatically re-direct any future posts to this thread.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Larry,

What a wonderful idea!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> The only shortcoming is that it requires an ongoing moderators' input, and their appearance here seems somewhat sporadic...

Still, seriously, makis has caused quite a harm to this particular thread - it started as a seriously interesting discussion, and look what a transmogrification it suffered from his "contribution"!

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>So, how about this:

Set up a special "Retard's" thread (perhaps labeled as such, just for grins?). When someone has spent enough time playing jokes on us that most of us are tired of it we could ask the moderator to move their existing posts (and replies) to this thread and to also automatically re-direct any future posts to this thread.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Larry,

What a wonderful idea!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> The only shortcoming is that it requires an ongoing moderators' input, and their appearance here seems somewhat sporadic...

Still, seriously, makis has caused quite a harm to this particular thread - it started as a seriously interesting discussion, and look what a transmogrification it suffered from his "contribution"!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
If the software creating this board is well designed there won't need to be any "on-going" input required from the moderator. All posts from specified accounts would be automatically redirected, until further notice. Replies to such posts would appear in the same thread as always.

Regards,
LB