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What was wrong with Dingle?
18 years 7 months ago #10863
by ebg
Replied by ebg on topic Reply from
Let a ruler upon earth be labeled "ruler A". Let a ruler aboard a rocket ship in motion be labeled "ruler B". Now, ruler A is of proper length within earth frame, and ruler B is of improper length within earth frame (whereas ruler B is of proper length within rocket ship frame, and ruler A is of improper length within rocket ship frame.) Then, the only difference between ruler A within earth frame and ruler B within earth frame is scale.
For example: If ruler A is 1/4 of an inch within earth frame (or 1/8 inch within rocket ship frame), then 48 units of ruler A will fit across a 12 inch rod at rest on earth. If ruler B is 1/8 of an inch within earth frame (or 1/4 inch within the rocket ship frame), then 96 units of ruler B will fit across the same 12 inch rod at rest on earth. Therefore,
L=X2 - X1 is identical to: 12 inch rod at rest on earth = 48 units of ruler A within earth frame = 96 units of ruler B within earth frame.
Furthermore, if only 24 units of ruler A will fit across the contracted length of a rocket ship in motion within earth frame, and only 48 units of ruler B will fit across the same contracted length of the same rocket ship in motion within earth frame; then,
(l/g)=x2 - x1 is identical to: 6 inch contracted length of a rocket ship in motion within earth frame = 24 units of ruler A within earth frame = 48 units of ruler B within earth frame (whereby, the variable l is the 12" inch length of the rocket ship at rest within the rocket ship frame).
Therefore, if "x is distance and length within the rocket ship frame 'as observed from earth'", then x is the measurement of distance and length within earth frame as given by ruler B within the earth frame. But, then, why not just keep using ruler A instead of ruler B within earth frame, if measured distance and length within a particular reference frame is the same regardless of scale within that particular reference frame?
For example: If ruler A is 1/4 of an inch within earth frame (or 1/8 inch within rocket ship frame), then 48 units of ruler A will fit across a 12 inch rod at rest on earth. If ruler B is 1/8 of an inch within earth frame (or 1/4 inch within the rocket ship frame), then 96 units of ruler B will fit across the same 12 inch rod at rest on earth. Therefore,
L=X2 - X1 is identical to: 12 inch rod at rest on earth = 48 units of ruler A within earth frame = 96 units of ruler B within earth frame.
Furthermore, if only 24 units of ruler A will fit across the contracted length of a rocket ship in motion within earth frame, and only 48 units of ruler B will fit across the same contracted length of the same rocket ship in motion within earth frame; then,
(l/g)=x2 - x1 is identical to: 6 inch contracted length of a rocket ship in motion within earth frame = 24 units of ruler A within earth frame = 48 units of ruler B within earth frame (whereby, the variable l is the 12" inch length of the rocket ship at rest within the rocket ship frame).
Therefore, if "x is distance and length within the rocket ship frame 'as observed from earth'", then x is the measurement of distance and length within earth frame as given by ruler B within the earth frame. But, then, why not just keep using ruler A instead of ruler B within earth frame, if measured distance and length within a particular reference frame is the same regardless of scale within that particular reference frame?
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18 years 7 months ago #15827
by Larry Burford
[ebg] “Then, the only difference between ruler A within earth frame and ruler B within earth frame is scale.”
Unfortunately that is not true in SR. The real problem with this sort of comparison (using SR) is that from the perspective of the rocket frame each end of ruler B exists in the present. But from the perspective of the Earth frame each end of ruler B exists at different times, neither of which is the present. This makes it significantly more difficult for the two observers to agree about their observations.
===
In order to measure the position interval (AKA “length”) of an object one must record the position coordinate of each end of the object and subtract. For a stationary object this is easy, but if the object is moving you have to be careful to either:
1) Take both position readings at the same time.
or
2) Record the time of each reading and correct for the time difference (using the known speed of the object).
in order to get an accurate length calculation.
But there is also that other complication mentioned above – the one where SR says that time in the moving frame is different from time in the fixed frame. This is the infamous “lack of remote simutaneity” of SR. Specifically, SR says that time in the moving frame is a function of the velocity difference between the frames AND a function of the position difference between the frames. The Lorentz transform for time is:
t_mov = gamma * ( T_fix – (v * X_fix / c^2) )
It’s that “v X over c squared” term that is the culprit.
So the moving observer and the fixed observer have to do some additional calculations related to time-of-observation for each coordinate before they can agree on the length of the rocket or the length of the rulers.
===
Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe / predict the things we see. Very useful, but not the whole story. Believing that SR is a physically accurate explanation of reality (time itself changes, rather than clocks) in addition to being a mathematically acurate description, however, is quite hard for some of us.
I lean toward Lorentzian relativity. It has a preferred frame (the local gravity field), a universal time (now everywhere) and no frame reciprocity (if I see your clock running slower, you see mine running faster).
The math of LR (see Tom’s primmer on LR) is equally able to describe and predict the things we see (so far). But physically it is much more like what you imagined where the only difference between ruler A and ruler B is their scale. None of SR’s paradoxes exist in LR because everything (right here AND way over there, moving AND stationary) happens now. Remote simultaneity does exist in LR.
===
Math is not physics. Math is not even the language of physics. It is, however, one of the languages of science. It is arguably the most important one. The other three are logic, art and English (or Russian or Spanish, etc.). All of them are vital to the proper conduct of science.
Regards,
LB
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
[ebg] “Then, the only difference between ruler A within earth frame and ruler B within earth frame is scale.”
Unfortunately that is not true in SR. The real problem with this sort of comparison (using SR) is that from the perspective of the rocket frame each end of ruler B exists in the present. But from the perspective of the Earth frame each end of ruler B exists at different times, neither of which is the present. This makes it significantly more difficult for the two observers to agree about their observations.
===
In order to measure the position interval (AKA “length”) of an object one must record the position coordinate of each end of the object and subtract. For a stationary object this is easy, but if the object is moving you have to be careful to either:
1) Take both position readings at the same time.
or
2) Record the time of each reading and correct for the time difference (using the known speed of the object).
in order to get an accurate length calculation.
But there is also that other complication mentioned above – the one where SR says that time in the moving frame is different from time in the fixed frame. This is the infamous “lack of remote simutaneity” of SR. Specifically, SR says that time in the moving frame is a function of the velocity difference between the frames AND a function of the position difference between the frames. The Lorentz transform for time is:
t_mov = gamma * ( T_fix – (v * X_fix / c^2) )
It’s that “v X over c squared” term that is the culprit.
So the moving observer and the fixed observer have to do some additional calculations related to time-of-observation for each coordinate before they can agree on the length of the rocket or the length of the rulers.
===
Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe / predict the things we see. Very useful, but not the whole story. Believing that SR is a physically accurate explanation of reality (time itself changes, rather than clocks) in addition to being a mathematically acurate description, however, is quite hard for some of us.
I lean toward Lorentzian relativity. It has a preferred frame (the local gravity field), a universal time (now everywhere) and no frame reciprocity (if I see your clock running slower, you see mine running faster).
The math of LR (see Tom’s primmer on LR) is equally able to describe and predict the things we see (so far). But physically it is much more like what you imagined where the only difference between ruler A and ruler B is their scale. None of SR’s paradoxes exist in LR because everything (right here AND way over there, moving AND stationary) happens now. Remote simultaneity does exist in LR.
===
Math is not physics. Math is not even the language of physics. It is, however, one of the languages of science. It is arguably the most important one. The other three are logic, art and English (or Russian or Spanish, etc.). All of them are vital to the proper conduct of science.
Regards,
LB
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18 years 7 months ago #10871
by thebobgy
Replied by thebobgy on topic Reply from Robert (Bob) Smith
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Larry Burford
Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe / predict the things we see. Very useful, but not the whole story. Believing that SR is a physically accurate explanation of reality (time itself changes, rather than clocks) in addition to being a mathematically acurate description, however, is quite hard for some of us. Regards, LB<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Larry, Your statement; “Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe/predict the things we see.” is a bit confusing, in your quiz back in Jan. you asked the question “TRUE or FALSE: If a theory is internally consistent, it cannot also be wrong.” and I came to believe that you did not accept SR. SR arrives at four basic formula; “Time dilation, Rod contraction, Mass increase and Energy = Mass x C2. Now, if I read you right you are saying that SRs math makes accurate predictions. Which of those four do you think is an accurate prediction of any known physical event? Thank you.
thebobgy
Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe / predict the things we see. Very useful, but not the whole story. Believing that SR is a physically accurate explanation of reality (time itself changes, rather than clocks) in addition to being a mathematically acurate description, however, is quite hard for some of us. Regards, LB<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Larry, Your statement; “Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe/predict the things we see.” is a bit confusing, in your quiz back in Jan. you asked the question “TRUE or FALSE: If a theory is internally consistent, it cannot also be wrong.” and I came to believe that you did not accept SR. SR arrives at four basic formula; “Time dilation, Rod contraction, Mass increase and Energy = Mass x C2. Now, if I read you right you are saying that SRs math makes accurate predictions. Which of those four do you think is an accurate prediction of any known physical event? Thank you.
thebobgy
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18 years 6 months ago #10883
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
[thebobgy] “ … I came to believe that you did not accept SR.”
What did I say that gave you the impresion that I DO accept SR? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the part where I said “I lean toward Lorentzian Relativity.“
???,
LB
What did I say that gave you the impresion that I DO accept SR? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the part where I said “I lean toward Lorentzian Relativity.“
???,
LB
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18 years 6 months ago #10884
by thebobgy
Replied by thebobgy on topic Reply from Robert (Bob) Smith
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Burford</i>
<br />[thebobgy] “ … I came to believe that you did not accept SR.”
What did I say that gave you the impresion that I DO accept SR? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the part where I said “I lean toward Lorentzian Relativity.“
???,
LB
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Larry, judging from the following statement, “Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe/predict the things we see.” (a quote which is in my original reply)I think it is safe to believe that you accept some of/or all of SRs math and the fact that you "lean" toward LR does not in itself mean you reject SR so I asked my question. I was not going to ask you to prove any of SRs math that you might accept. I reject SR in its entirity I was just supprised that you felt some of SRs math actuall works. I was not asking a trick question if that might be what you thought. No harm no foul. Thank you.
thebobgy
<br />[thebobgy] “ … I came to believe that you did not accept SR.”
What did I say that gave you the impresion that I DO accept SR? I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the part where I said “I lean toward Lorentzian Relativity.“
???,
LB
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Larry, judging from the following statement, “Understanding SR is not all that hard. The math actually works, and is able to accurately describe/predict the things we see.” (a quote which is in my original reply)I think it is safe to believe that you accept some of/or all of SRs math and the fact that you "lean" toward LR does not in itself mean you reject SR so I asked my question. I was not going to ask you to prove any of SRs math that you might accept. I reject SR in its entirity I was just supprised that you felt some of SRs math actuall works. I was not asking a trick question if that might be what you thought. No harm no foul. Thank you.
thebobgy
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18 years 6 months ago #10885
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
Bob,
I sensed (and still sense) real confusion rather than an attempt at a trick question. I hope that we can find the cause and fix it. I may not be expressing myself as well as I think I am.
Let’s see, you referenced my quiz from earlier this year -
[thebobgy] “… in your quiz back in Jan. you asked the question “TRUE or FALSE: If a theory is internally consistent, it cannot also be wrong.”
The answer was - FALSE
And I used SR as an example. IIRC you got this one right. Paraphrasing my explanation of the answer to this Pop Quiz question –
1) SR actually is internally consistent.
2) SR actually does make accurate mathmaticial predictions.
3) Never the less, SR is actually not (IMO) an accurate <u>physical explanation</u> of reality.
Another famous theory, the Ptolemaic system (advocated by Claudius Ptolemaeus, 90AD – 168AD, a near contemporary of Heron of Alexandria [AKA Hero], inventor of the first steam turbine around 70AD), also makes accurate mathematical predictions about the future postions of the planets and is internally consistent.
If we were to apply modern scientific resources to this theory we could probably make it as accourate in its mathematical predictions as Newton. In fact, I would not be too surprized if someone could find several “super epicycles” that would even allow it to accurately predict some or even all of the observed relativistic phenomena. Things like perihelion advance and light bending near large masses.
Never the less it was not (and still would not be, even with the upgrades just mentioned) an accurate <u>physical explanation</u> of reality. IMO.
(
Would you conclude from my recognition of the accurate predictions of the Ptolemaic system that I believe it is a good theory?
)
Regards,
LB
I sensed (and still sense) real confusion rather than an attempt at a trick question. I hope that we can find the cause and fix it. I may not be expressing myself as well as I think I am.
Let’s see, you referenced my quiz from earlier this year -
[thebobgy] “… in your quiz back in Jan. you asked the question “TRUE or FALSE: If a theory is internally consistent, it cannot also be wrong.”
The answer was - FALSE
And I used SR as an example. IIRC you got this one right. Paraphrasing my explanation of the answer to this Pop Quiz question –
1) SR actually is internally consistent.
2) SR actually does make accurate mathmaticial predictions.
3) Never the less, SR is actually not (IMO) an accurate <u>physical explanation</u> of reality.
Another famous theory, the Ptolemaic system (advocated by Claudius Ptolemaeus, 90AD – 168AD, a near contemporary of Heron of Alexandria [AKA Hero], inventor of the first steam turbine around 70AD), also makes accurate mathematical predictions about the future postions of the planets and is internally consistent.
If we were to apply modern scientific resources to this theory we could probably make it as accourate in its mathematical predictions as Newton. In fact, I would not be too surprized if someone could find several “super epicycles” that would even allow it to accurately predict some or even all of the observed relativistic phenomena. Things like perihelion advance and light bending near large masses.
Never the less it was not (and still would not be, even with the upgrades just mentioned) an accurate <u>physical explanation</u> of reality. IMO.
(
Would you conclude from my recognition of the accurate predictions of the Ptolemaic system that I believe it is a good theory?
)
Regards,
LB
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