The entropy of systems

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shando</i>
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Hmmm ... I have been thinking about the effect of temperature on the particles making up the LCM, and also the gravitons' motion that creates gravity. Are they affected by temperature as described by this 3rd Law?
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By LCM, do you mean light-carrying medium? The space between stars is certainly permeated with radiation from these stars at all sorts of frequencies. Radiation is more important closest to a star, therefore interacts (bends) light coming from other stars in the background.
The temperature of these radiated (or radiating) particles can be found with their corresponding wavelengths.

According to this theory, the transformation of matter (or energy) in a dissipative system such as the universe is what causes gravity.

A graviton, if it exists, is possibly one of the radiated particles (or radiated energy) from stars producing energy from matter.

The 3rd Law could apply at the end (in time) of a dissipative system, as available energy to produce work would come to an end. Matter reaching the black hole at the center of the galaxy is a good example. There is probably a region (center) which is closest to zero entropy.

There are also laws for black hole mechanics:

"The four laws of black hole mechanics are physical properties that black holes are believed to satisfy. The laws, analogous to the laws of thermodynamics, were discovered by Brandon Carter, Stephen Hawking and James Bardeen"

The third law (similar to thermodynamics):
"Extremal black holes have vanishing surface gravity. Stating that cannot go to zero is analogous to the third law of thermodynamics which, in its weak formulation, states that it is impossible to reach absolute zero temperature in a physical process. The strong version of the third law of thermodynamics, which states that as the temperature approaches zero, the entropy also approaches zero, does not have an analogue for black holes. However, the strong version is violated by many known systems in condensed matter physics, and has therefore been rejected as a law."

This one says that the third law is rejected...

I am going to have to do a bit of searching... to me, the third law seems O.K.
Since a system never reaches zero entropy at the edge of a black hole, (only tends toward zero) motion of particles in atoms will fall to almost zero before being ejected at close to speed of light by the black hole. The closest to zero entropy region of the black hole would be the point right below the high energy jet stream.

Does this sound correct?

I see where the confusion arises: The second law states that a system's entropy always increases. Therefore it could not reach zero entropy...
I think the second law should be rephrased...

In a non-equilibrium dissipative system, entropy always increases hence its exergy decreases correspondingly. Energy dissipation (and heat radiation) is the process by which a system tends to equilibrium (tends to zero exergy).

I found the introduction to a paper on the web about the possibility that black holes conform to principles of irreversible thermodynamics:

BY: P. Candelas & D.W. Sciama (paper received June 21 1977)

"The action of quantum fluctuations of the gravitational field may be regarded as the origin of the dissipative processes associated with Hawking radiation... The black hole possesses internal coherence by virtue of the localization of its mass. The cumulative effect of the quantum fluctuations in the geometry is that this coherence is corrupted and the mass is sapped away."

"Recent work on black holes, culminating in Hawkings remarkable discovery of their quantum radiance, has shown that they obey the laws of thermodynamics as applied to equilibrium states and reversible processes."

<i>As shown in the previous post, this was not the case since the third law could not apply... other laws were implemented to satisfy equilibriated reversible processes</i>

" We wish to argue that they conform also to the principles of irreversible thermodynamics in the form of a fluctuation- dissipation theorem. The dissipation is associated with the absorption of ordered energy by the black hole and its subsequent re-radiation by the Hawking process. It has been shown that Hawking radiation has the same stochastic properties as black body radiation and so is completely disordered. A black hole is thus a perfect dissipator."

I took a few excerpts from definitions on the web. You will notice there is no logical pattern as they all go in different tangents.
I have added my own definition which I think should agree with this theory. Which one would it be? (1-13)

1) In the modern Standard Model of particle physics, photons are described as a necessary consequence of physical laws having a certain symmetry at every point in spacetime.

2) As quantum mechanics, and any classical dynamical system, relies heavily on Hamiltonian mechanics for which time is reversible, these approximations are not intrinsically able to describe dissipative systems. (because hamiltonian mechanics relies on symmetry.)

3) A photon is often referred to as a "light quantum". The energy of an electron bound to an atom (at rest) is also said to be quantized, which results in the stability of atoms, and of matter in general. But these terms can be a little misleading, because what is quantized is this Planck's constant quantity whose units can be viewed as either energy multiplied by time or momentum multiplied by distance.

4) In physics, a photon is an elementary particle, the quantum of the electromagnetic field and the basic "unit" of light and all other forms of electromagnetic radiation.

5)Electromagnetic radiation (sometimes abbreviated EMR) is an ubiquitous phenomenon that takes the form of self-propagating waves in a vacuum or in matter. It consists of electric and magnetic field components which oscillate in phase perpendicular to each other and perpendicular to the direction of energy propagation. Electromagnetic radiation is classified into several types according to the frequency of its wave; these types include (in order of increasing frequency and decreasing wavelength): radio waves, microwaves, terahertz radiation, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays. A small and somewhat variable window of frequencies is sensed by the eyes of various organisms; this is what we call the visible spectrum, or light.

6) It is usual to suppose that the photon is a stable particle of potentially infinite lifetime. However, as pointed out in a letter from the astronomer Gunnar Welin to New Scientist magazine (20 Oct. 1983), this is a misconception. The true lifetime of the photon is exactly 0 s, thus making it the most unstable particle known. To be meaningful the lifetime must be measured in the reference frame of the particle itself. (the photon of light has zero mass).The photon (as well as the as-yet undetected graviton) moves at the speed of light (of course), hence, no matter how many billions of light-years it has traversed before being caught, for example, in a telescope, the photon itself has not experienced the passage of any time.

7) In a thermodynamic system, a "universe" consisting of "surroundings" and "systems" and made up of quantities of matter, its pressure differences, density differences, and temperature differences all tend to equalize over timebecause equilibrium state has higher probability (more possible combinations of microstates) than any other.

structure formation in thermodynamic systems away from equilibrium. The theory of dissipative structures of Prigogine and Hermann Haken's Synergetics were developed to unify the understanding of these phenomena, which include in fluid dynamics: structure formation, in astrophysics and cosmology (including star formation): planetary systems formation, galaxy formation.

9) In the cores of main sequence stars, four hydrogen nuclei, each with the mass of one proton, are fused together to form a single helium nucleus (two protons and two neutrons) that has a mass of 3.97 times the mass of one proton. An amount of mass equal to 0.03 times the mass of one proton was given up and converted to energy equal to 0.03 (mass one proton) c2. The efficiency of this reaction is about 4/5 of one percent. The Sun could last for about 10 billion years on hydrogen fusion in its core.

10) Protons are observed to be stable and their theoretical minimum half-life is 11036 years. Grand unified theories generally predict that proton decay should take place, although experiments so far have only resulted in a lower limit of 1035 years for the proton's lifetime. In other words, proton decay has never been witnessed and the experimental lower bound on the mean proton lifetime (2.11029 years) is put by the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory[4].

11) however, protons are known to transform into neutrons through the process of electron capture. This process does not occur spontaneously but only when energy is supplied.

12) A Neutron star is created when the star has converted all of its protons into neutrons with the release of energy supplied in the conversion.

13) the release of the gravitational binding energy of the neutron stars powers the supernova: "In the supernova process mass in bulk is annihilated". If the central part of a massive star before its collapse contains (for example) 3 solar masses, then a neutron star of 2 solar masses can be formed. The binding energy E of such a neutron star, when expressed in mass units via the mass-energy equivalence formula E = mc, is 1 solar mass. It is ultimately this energy that powers the supernova.

Item 12 is the one which I added.
Proton decay is a natural event in the universe.

Here is another article from the web:
"As of 2009, there is still no hard evidence that nature is described by a Grand Unified Theory. Moreover, since the Higgs particle has not yet been observed, the smaller electroweak unification is still pending.[2] The discovery of neutrino oscillations indicates that the Standard Model is incomplete and has led to renewed interest toward certain GUT such as SO(10). <i>One of the few possible experimental tests of certain GUT is proton decay and also fermion masses.</i> There are a few more special tests for supersymmetric GUT."

I will try to find out why proton decay is difficult to detect.
Maybe the energies in different wavelengths released by the atom are not all given off in "quanta".