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My pareidolia knows no bounds.
10 years 2 months ago #22660
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by pareidoliac</i>
<br />A face seen in a dream is not pareidolia.(Ressler). Seeing a pattern that looks like a face while dreaming would be dream pareidolia but i imagine it would take a lot to do that because the brain doesn't seem (today) to be hard wired to do that. i have never seen pareidolia in a dream and have overloaded my brain with pareidolia at times. i often dream of meaningful daytime experience (when i dream) but not pareidolia. Interesting- worthy of research.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I agree. I think pareidolia is the state of being temporarily confused as to whether or not a pattern is man-made or natural, and I don't see how that would apply to dreams, since everything is pretty much imaginary.
It is an interesting twist on the subject though.
rd
<br />A face seen in a dream is not pareidolia.(Ressler). Seeing a pattern that looks like a face while dreaming would be dream pareidolia but i imagine it would take a lot to do that because the brain doesn't seem (today) to be hard wired to do that. i have never seen pareidolia in a dream and have overloaded my brain with pareidolia at times. i often dream of meaningful daytime experience (when i dream) but not pareidolia. Interesting- worthy of research.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I agree. I think pareidolia is the state of being temporarily confused as to whether or not a pattern is man-made or natural, and I don't see how that would apply to dreams, since everything is pretty much imaginary.
It is an interesting twist on the subject though.
rd
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10 years 2 months ago #22593
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsevidence01</i>
<br />Moreover, IT IS INCORRECT TO CONFUSE THE RESEARCHER, ENQUIRER OR LAYPERSON THAT UNKNOWN IMAGES AND DATA POINTS ON THE SURFACE OF MARS ARE THE RESULT OF THE PHENOMENON KNOWN AS PAREIDOLIA - PERIOD.
FURTHER, I FEEL IT IS SOMEWHAT UNSCIENTIFIC AND OTHERWISE IRRESPONSIBLE TO INFER TO ANYONE THAT THIS IS INDEED THE CASE FOR THE REASONS I HAVE OUTLINED ABOVE.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I disagree. I offer the researcher a choice. I simply say:
All of this stuff that Mars Anomaly Hunters are finding <b>could be pareidolia.</b> And I laid out my reasons why.
rd
<br />Moreover, IT IS INCORRECT TO CONFUSE THE RESEARCHER, ENQUIRER OR LAYPERSON THAT UNKNOWN IMAGES AND DATA POINTS ON THE SURFACE OF MARS ARE THE RESULT OF THE PHENOMENON KNOWN AS PAREIDOLIA - PERIOD.
FURTHER, I FEEL IT IS SOMEWHAT UNSCIENTIFIC AND OTHERWISE IRRESPONSIBLE TO INFER TO ANYONE THAT THIS IS INDEED THE CASE FOR THE REASONS I HAVE OUTLINED ABOVE.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I disagree. I offer the researcher a choice. I simply say:
All of this stuff that Mars Anomaly Hunters are finding <b>could be pareidolia.</b> And I laid out my reasons why.
rd
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10 years 2 months ago #22594
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsevidence01</i>
<br />Again - THERE ARE NO PAREIDOLIA IMAGES ON MARS - NONE.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
"Pareidolia" knows no bounds. It can be found in any medium, both here and in the universe at large, including Mars.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to review the defs:
==============================================================================
* 1 ****************************************************
Reference: encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/
Definition:
Pareidolia (/pr#616;#712;do#650;li#601;/ parr-i-doh-lee-#601;) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant, a form of apophenia. Common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon or the Moon rabbit, and hearing hidden messages on records when played in reverse.
The word comes from the Greek words para (#960;#945;#961;#940;, "beside, alongside, instead") in this context meaning something faulty, wrong, instead of; and the noun eid#333;lon (#949;#7988;#948;#969;#955;#959;#957; "image, form, shape") the diminutive of eidos. Pareidolia is a type of apophenia, seeing patterns in random data.
Name: modern
NOTE - formerly named 'rev 1', changed on 12/20/2013
* 2 ****************************************************
Reference:
Fred Ressler: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pareidolia
Definition:
Pareidolia--
Pareidolia is the phenomena of seeing faces/figures/forms in patterns; as opposed to where one normally sees faces/figures/forms (on animals including people.)
It is seeing what appears to the individual to be a representation seen in the clouds, wood grain, marble, smoke, shadows, fire or any non-homogeneous area where a pattern is made by nature without man's intervention.
Name: Ressler
*3 ****************************************************
Reference:
The Journal of Mental Science, Volume 13, Pg. 238 (Apr 1867); books.google.com/books?id=66g8AAAAYAAJ&p...areidolia%22&f=false
Definition:
Pareidolia is the manifestation of a mental condition causing, changing hallucination, partial hallucination, and/or perceptions of secondary images.
Name: original
NOTE: alt name suggestion - German Psychological Literature
*4 ****************************************************
Reference: Discussion earlier in this thread with rderosa about the evolution of this word, especially since the rise of mechanical computing systems capable of sophisticated pattern recognition. (Ref. for discussion: www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2...in-computers/260760/ )
Definition: Pareidolia is a simple pattern recognition error in any system/organism/process/organization/concept/etc. capable of performing the function of pattern recognition.
For example, a system processes some input (sound, image, text, etc.) and produces a positive result ("the input is recognized as 'A' with very high confidence") when in fact the input is B. 'B' is used here to mean 'not A' (something, anything, significantly other than 'A').
Name: New
* 5 ****************************************************
Reference: www.metaresearch.org/msgboard/topic.asp?...C_ID=873&whichpage=1
Definition:
Pareidolia
1. A personal human trait, in which we perceive images (or sounds) in random patterns that appear to be man-made (or God-made, or Martian-made, etc.), but in fact aren't. They are merely patterns which our mind interprets and fills in the blanks to create what seems to be something that is man-made (or God-made, or Martian-made, etc.)
2. On close inspection, all pareidolic images are interpreted from a rational standpoint (i.e., they either go away totally, or are understood for what they really are.) Some examples might be: faces, bodies, armies, buildings or vehicles in the clouds, in shadows, in trees, in wallpaper, on the Moon or Martian surface. All which appear man-made, but when examined closely, are understood to be everyday objects, or natural features of the landscape, etc.
3. Pareidolic images are essentially the "partial hallucinations" described in Def 3 pareidolia (original) with the exception that they are the manifestation of a normal human trait, rather than a mental disorder.
4. An important element of this definition is the question of whether or not the object in question is real and/or man-made or merely an image we have constructed in our minds from the pattern. For this reason, clocks and the back of trucks and the like are specifically excluded, since we already know they are real and man-made. Without this underlying question, we are not dealing with a pareidolic image under this definition.
Name: derosa
NOTE: This definition specifically excludes any and all images of the type shown on this page ( www.flickr.com/groups/hellolittlefella/ ) which are, in fact, real and man-made, but have shapes that can sort of look like something else (a face). Because we know them to be real and man-made in the first place, they don't apply.
=====================================================================================================
The Five Definitions of Pareidolia Summarized:
Original: Manifestation of mental disorder, causing partial hallucinations.
Modern: Psychological phenomenon involving random stimuli in normal people being perceived as significant, a form of apopenia.
Ressler: Phenomena of seeing faces/figures/forms in patterns occurring naturally, without man's intervention, all around us.
New: A simple pattern recognition error in any system/organism/process/organization/concept/etc. capable of performing the function of pattern recognition.
Derosa: A personal human trait causing temporary confusion between man-made and naturally occurring faces, forms, features, sounds, etc.
rd
<br />Again - THERE ARE NO PAREIDOLIA IMAGES ON MARS - NONE.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
"Pareidolia" knows no bounds. It can be found in any medium, both here and in the universe at large, including Mars.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to review the defs:
==============================================================================
* 1 ****************************************************
Reference: encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/
Definition:
Pareidolia (/pr#616;#712;do#650;li#601;/ parr-i-doh-lee-#601;) is a psychological phenomenon involving a vague and random stimulus (often an image or sound) being perceived as significant, a form of apophenia. Common examples include seeing images of animals or faces in clouds, the man in the moon or the Moon rabbit, and hearing hidden messages on records when played in reverse.
The word comes from the Greek words para (#960;#945;#961;#940;, "beside, alongside, instead") in this context meaning something faulty, wrong, instead of; and the noun eid#333;lon (#949;#7988;#948;#969;#955;#959;#957; "image, form, shape") the diminutive of eidos. Pareidolia is a type of apophenia, seeing patterns in random data.
Name: modern
NOTE - formerly named 'rev 1', changed on 12/20/2013
* 2 ****************************************************
Reference:
Fred Ressler: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pareidolia
Definition:
Pareidolia--
Pareidolia is the phenomena of seeing faces/figures/forms in patterns; as opposed to where one normally sees faces/figures/forms (on animals including people.)
It is seeing what appears to the individual to be a representation seen in the clouds, wood grain, marble, smoke, shadows, fire or any non-homogeneous area where a pattern is made by nature without man's intervention.
Name: Ressler
*3 ****************************************************
Reference:
The Journal of Mental Science, Volume 13, Pg. 238 (Apr 1867); books.google.com/books?id=66g8AAAAYAAJ&p...areidolia%22&f=false
Definition:
Pareidolia is the manifestation of a mental condition causing, changing hallucination, partial hallucination, and/or perceptions of secondary images.
Name: original
NOTE: alt name suggestion - German Psychological Literature
*4 ****************************************************
Reference: Discussion earlier in this thread with rderosa about the evolution of this word, especially since the rise of mechanical computing systems capable of sophisticated pattern recognition. (Ref. for discussion: www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2...in-computers/260760/ )
Definition: Pareidolia is a simple pattern recognition error in any system/organism/process/organization/concept/etc. capable of performing the function of pattern recognition.
For example, a system processes some input (sound, image, text, etc.) and produces a positive result ("the input is recognized as 'A' with very high confidence") when in fact the input is B. 'B' is used here to mean 'not A' (something, anything, significantly other than 'A').
Name: New
* 5 ****************************************************
Reference: www.metaresearch.org/msgboard/topic.asp?...C_ID=873&whichpage=1
Definition:
Pareidolia
1. A personal human trait, in which we perceive images (or sounds) in random patterns that appear to be man-made (or God-made, or Martian-made, etc.), but in fact aren't. They are merely patterns which our mind interprets and fills in the blanks to create what seems to be something that is man-made (or God-made, or Martian-made, etc.)
2. On close inspection, all pareidolic images are interpreted from a rational standpoint (i.e., they either go away totally, or are understood for what they really are.) Some examples might be: faces, bodies, armies, buildings or vehicles in the clouds, in shadows, in trees, in wallpaper, on the Moon or Martian surface. All which appear man-made, but when examined closely, are understood to be everyday objects, or natural features of the landscape, etc.
3. Pareidolic images are essentially the "partial hallucinations" described in Def 3 pareidolia (original) with the exception that they are the manifestation of a normal human trait, rather than a mental disorder.
4. An important element of this definition is the question of whether or not the object in question is real and/or man-made or merely an image we have constructed in our minds from the pattern. For this reason, clocks and the back of trucks and the like are specifically excluded, since we already know they are real and man-made. Without this underlying question, we are not dealing with a pareidolic image under this definition.
Name: derosa
NOTE: This definition specifically excludes any and all images of the type shown on this page ( www.flickr.com/groups/hellolittlefella/ ) which are, in fact, real and man-made, but have shapes that can sort of look like something else (a face). Because we know them to be real and man-made in the first place, they don't apply.
=====================================================================================================
The Five Definitions of Pareidolia Summarized:
Original: Manifestation of mental disorder, causing partial hallucinations.
Modern: Psychological phenomenon involving random stimuli in normal people being perceived as significant, a form of apopenia.
Ressler: Phenomena of seeing faces/figures/forms in patterns occurring naturally, without man's intervention, all around us.
New: A simple pattern recognition error in any system/organism/process/organization/concept/etc. capable of performing the function of pattern recognition.
Derosa: A personal human trait causing temporary confusion between man-made and naturally occurring faces, forms, features, sounds, etc.
rd
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- Marsevidence01
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10 years 2 months ago #22442
by Marsevidence01
Replied by Marsevidence01 on topic Reply from Malcolm Scott
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rderosa</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsevidence01</i>
<br />When I return from a short break, I plan on posting a new thread where I'd like to address the psychological condition of Cognitive Dissonance. If I am right here, this condition is something you might want (need) to address. I will also bring in some personal expert consultantion on the subject as I for one, feel quite convinced that this condition hit's more in the field of planetary scientists than we may be aware of and as a result, inhibits great minds of further knowledge.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Malcolm, you're getting dangerously close to resorting to ad-hominem attacks (actually, you already crossed the threshold). Please keep your messages to me direct responses the the points I make in my responses to you.
Commenting about my mental state, or my "needs" is totally off-base, and I'm kind of surprised Larry hasn't jettisoned some of it already.
There's no need to bring in a "specialist" on some known or unknown mental disorder, while discussing the issue of whether or not what you're seeing on Mars is really art, or just patterns in the terrain.
As I said in my last message, you believe one thing is likely, and I believe the exact opposite is likely. No need for personal attacks.
rd
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Rich, to be sure and to clarify. The condition known as Cognitive Dissonance is NOT a "mental condition" thus defined incorrectly as a "mental disorder" it is a condition we as humans have to deal with as part of being human. It happens to me and the next guy. What I am referring to here is to the "way" we handle this condition. I want to get further input on this subject from consultation FOR MYSELF - NOT FOR YOU. ok?
Now what I am insistent on is your continuing insistence about the anomalies on Mars and how they are interpreted as a result of a pareidolic episode. This is unequivocally wrong and is producing a perceived image "out there" that the person evaluating the Martian surface will experience a pareidolic experience which is and can be perceived as "A MENTAL DISORDER". And this is wrong wrong WRONG! PERIOD.
Pareidolia is an Earth based human condition in various forms that occur when the target data IS KNOWN. NO DATA...NO PAREIDOLIA.
I could say; "that in my opinion, there is evidence on Mars that seems to suggest intelligent design. I COULD BE WRONG AND I COULD BE RIGHT.
Conversely, if you say "in my opinion, the findings whatever they are could be a result of Pareidolia" YOU WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY WRONG. Because you need finite data of the reality of the target to make that statement. I don't know what part of this you don't seem to be getting. In fact, I do believe, if TVF looked into this condition more thoroughly, he would never have allowed it to be used here as it has.
Again, Pareidolia IS AN EARTH BASED HUMAN CONDITION THAT REQUIRES THE TARGET DATA TO BE KNOWN. Until we go to Mars and confirm the reality of the surface anomalies, they will remain MARTIAN SURFACE ANOMALIES and have no place for the phenomenon Pareidolia.
I want to make sure that new researchers do not get intimidated in reviewing the surface features and being inappropriately mislead in even thinking of the possibility of Pareidolia. Until such time as the condition can be confirmed.
Thank you very much!
Malcolm Scott
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Marsevidence01</i>
<br />When I return from a short break, I plan on posting a new thread where I'd like to address the psychological condition of Cognitive Dissonance. If I am right here, this condition is something you might want (need) to address. I will also bring in some personal expert consultantion on the subject as I for one, feel quite convinced that this condition hit's more in the field of planetary scientists than we may be aware of and as a result, inhibits great minds of further knowledge.
Malcolm Scott
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Malcolm, you're getting dangerously close to resorting to ad-hominem attacks (actually, you already crossed the threshold). Please keep your messages to me direct responses the the points I make in my responses to you.
Commenting about my mental state, or my "needs" is totally off-base, and I'm kind of surprised Larry hasn't jettisoned some of it already.
There's no need to bring in a "specialist" on some known or unknown mental disorder, while discussing the issue of whether or not what you're seeing on Mars is really art, or just patterns in the terrain.
As I said in my last message, you believe one thing is likely, and I believe the exact opposite is likely. No need for personal attacks.
rd
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Rich, to be sure and to clarify. The condition known as Cognitive Dissonance is NOT a "mental condition" thus defined incorrectly as a "mental disorder" it is a condition we as humans have to deal with as part of being human. It happens to me and the next guy. What I am referring to here is to the "way" we handle this condition. I want to get further input on this subject from consultation FOR MYSELF - NOT FOR YOU. ok?
Now what I am insistent on is your continuing insistence about the anomalies on Mars and how they are interpreted as a result of a pareidolic episode. This is unequivocally wrong and is producing a perceived image "out there" that the person evaluating the Martian surface will experience a pareidolic experience which is and can be perceived as "A MENTAL DISORDER". And this is wrong wrong WRONG! PERIOD.
Pareidolia is an Earth based human condition in various forms that occur when the target data IS KNOWN. NO DATA...NO PAREIDOLIA.
I could say; "that in my opinion, there is evidence on Mars that seems to suggest intelligent design. I COULD BE WRONG AND I COULD BE RIGHT.
Conversely, if you say "in my opinion, the findings whatever they are could be a result of Pareidolia" YOU WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY WRONG. Because you need finite data of the reality of the target to make that statement. I don't know what part of this you don't seem to be getting. In fact, I do believe, if TVF looked into this condition more thoroughly, he would never have allowed it to be used here as it has.
Again, Pareidolia IS AN EARTH BASED HUMAN CONDITION THAT REQUIRES THE TARGET DATA TO BE KNOWN. Until we go to Mars and confirm the reality of the surface anomalies, they will remain MARTIAN SURFACE ANOMALIES and have no place for the phenomenon Pareidolia.
I want to make sure that new researchers do not get intimidated in reviewing the surface features and being inappropriately mislead in even thinking of the possibility of Pareidolia. Until such time as the condition can be confirmed.
Thank you very much!
Malcolm Scott
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- Larry Burford
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10 years 2 months ago #22718
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
<b>[LB]
Even when nothing has been implied, many of us still infer.
it's a design flaw.
[rderosa]
True, but I'm not sure what you're referencing.</b>
***
I'm referring to everything posted here by the believers.
** SO FAR **
pareidoliac said it pretty well (but I suspect not intentionally):<ul>
<li>I was selling in the farmers market and have heard a "Jesus freak" say "they all look like Jesus."</li>
<li>I heard a drunk say to me "i don't see a damn thing."</li>
</ul><ul>We see what we project ...</ul>
***
yawn
***
FYI -
I still expect the first *real* breakthrough in this area of research to happen on this site. It just has NOT happened yet.
Even when nothing has been implied, many of us still infer.
it's a design flaw.
[rderosa]
True, but I'm not sure what you're referencing.</b>
***
I'm referring to everything posted here by the believers.
** SO FAR **
pareidoliac said it pretty well (but I suspect not intentionally):<ul>
<li>I was selling in the farmers market and have heard a "Jesus freak" say "they all look like Jesus."</li>
<li>I heard a drunk say to me "i don't see a damn thing."</li>
</ul><ul>We see what we project ...</ul>
***
yawn
***
FYI -
I still expect the first *real* breakthrough in this area of research to happen on this site. It just has NOT happened yet.
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10 years 2 months ago #22473
by Larry Burford
Replied by Larry Burford on topic Reply from Larry Burford
<b>[marsevidence01] "Pareidolia is an Earth based human condition in various forms that occur when the target data IS KNOWN. NO DATA...NO PAREIDOLIA."</b>
This is not a recognized definition. But then you knew that because you did not parenthetically reference a definition-name when you used the word pareidolia.
Do you want to add it to our data base of definitions? If so it will need to be made a bit more explicit.
And you will have to give it a name.
This is not a recognized definition. But then you knew that because you did not parenthetically reference a definition-name when you used the word pareidolia.
Do you want to add it to our data base of definitions? If so it will need to be made a bit more explicit.
And you will have to give it a name.
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