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Faces from the Chasmas
16 years 6 months ago #20038
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My fallback opinion is that these <b>are </b>Photoshop enhancements done with a cloning tool (or equivalent); please show me how Im wrong. neilderosa.........{empasis added}
I am not an expert in photography so I can not do such an analysis. neilderosa<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Fred, in my opinion, these two statements tell you all you need to know. In the first statement, Neil is saying that your pictures <b>are </b>(not "could be", but "are") photoshop enhancements. Aside from this being a slanderous statement (libel-Merriam-Webster online def 2b), it is one that can easily be proven false. In his second statement above, Neil admits that he doesn't actually know anything about this, so you can see how he would make this mistake.
If you were so inclined, or had any real reason to prove that your images <b>were not, in fact, "Photoshopped"</b> that could easily be done using the very experts that you've been dealing with when you were taking these analog pictures in the first place. Namely, the print shops.
Since your images were taken using 35mm film, and developed, you still have the negatives. All it would take would be for you to go to an indepentent, well known, reputable photo lab, and tell them what you want to accomplish. Say for instance that you used the negative for "Lila". Bring the negative and a copy of "Lila" to the lab and tell them that you need to a)authenticate that the negative is a true negative, undoctured in anyway, and b) prove that the negative produces an exact copy of "Lila".
Simply tell them that for professional reasons you need to prove that your images are what you say they are. (again, if you are so inclined. One could certainly understand why you wouldn't want to bother, since no professional in the art world or photography world has questioned them up to this point)
Any good lab (I'm sure the crime labs have done this before) can prove that the negative is undoctored, and then a new copy from the image could easily be proven to be an exact match to the original, in much the same way that fingerprints are "matched".
In this way, you could get a "scientific" seal of approval that your images are not photoshopped.
All that would leave is the question of whether or not some assistants were tweaking the leaves (or holding up make-believe leaves) as you were photographing your white board. But, since Neil has laid down the gauntlet by saying you "are" doctoring them in Photoshop, we can leave out the question of fake or tweaked leaves for the time being.
Also, all (some?, most?) of your negatives show the borders of the whiteboard with the face image as just a part of the whole, so that question would be answered too.
The whole thing might cost you a few bucks, but as your work has become more popular over time, there may be some benefit to having this proof in your portfolio.
Another thing you could do, would be to take some pictures using a digital camera in "movie" mode. Maybe a few seconds at a time. If you manage to capture a face in a clip, you can produce a small frame by frame demo showing the face come into existence from the the previous frames of swirling leaves. I tried this my self with some success. Once you had a good one, you can always save the frame as an image. I know you like the depth of analog better, but an experiment like this might go a long way towards clearing up what you're actually doing to the untrained observer.
rd
I am not an expert in photography so I can not do such an analysis. neilderosa<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Fred, in my opinion, these two statements tell you all you need to know. In the first statement, Neil is saying that your pictures <b>are </b>(not "could be", but "are") photoshop enhancements. Aside from this being a slanderous statement (libel-Merriam-Webster online def 2b), it is one that can easily be proven false. In his second statement above, Neil admits that he doesn't actually know anything about this, so you can see how he would make this mistake.
If you were so inclined, or had any real reason to prove that your images <b>were not, in fact, "Photoshopped"</b> that could easily be done using the very experts that you've been dealing with when you were taking these analog pictures in the first place. Namely, the print shops.
Since your images were taken using 35mm film, and developed, you still have the negatives. All it would take would be for you to go to an indepentent, well known, reputable photo lab, and tell them what you want to accomplish. Say for instance that you used the negative for "Lila". Bring the negative and a copy of "Lila" to the lab and tell them that you need to a)authenticate that the negative is a true negative, undoctured in anyway, and b) prove that the negative produces an exact copy of "Lila".
Simply tell them that for professional reasons you need to prove that your images are what you say they are. (again, if you are so inclined. One could certainly understand why you wouldn't want to bother, since no professional in the art world or photography world has questioned them up to this point)
Any good lab (I'm sure the crime labs have done this before) can prove that the negative is undoctored, and then a new copy from the image could easily be proven to be an exact match to the original, in much the same way that fingerprints are "matched".
In this way, you could get a "scientific" seal of approval that your images are not photoshopped.
All that would leave is the question of whether or not some assistants were tweaking the leaves (or holding up make-believe leaves) as you were photographing your white board. But, since Neil has laid down the gauntlet by saying you "are" doctoring them in Photoshop, we can leave out the question of fake or tweaked leaves for the time being.
Also, all (some?, most?) of your negatives show the borders of the whiteboard with the face image as just a part of the whole, so that question would be answered too.
The whole thing might cost you a few bucks, but as your work has become more popular over time, there may be some benefit to having this proof in your portfolio.
Another thing you could do, would be to take some pictures using a digital camera in "movie" mode. Maybe a few seconds at a time. If you manage to capture a face in a clip, you can produce a small frame by frame demo showing the face come into existence from the the previous frames of swirling leaves. I tried this my self with some success. Once you had a good one, you can always save the frame as an image. I know you like the depth of analog better, but an experiment like this might go a long way towards clearing up what you're actually doing to the untrained observer.
rd
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16 years 6 months ago #20039
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
Fred, incidentally, it would have been much harder to prove your images were authentic if the originals were digital rather than analog. I investigated once how one might produce some type of analogy to an "original image" in the digital world, and was somewhat amazed at how impossible it seemed to be. There are new forms of encryption, but the idea of an original image is somewhat elusive.
rd
rd
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- pareidoliac
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16 years 6 months ago #20116
by pareidoliac
Replied by pareidoliac on topic Reply from fred ressler
"He who has eyes let her/him see." i have no real desire to prove or disprove anything to anyone at this point, especially the obvious. It just strikes me as strange for anyone to accept such bizarre premises like "martian artwork," "whole planet of art," etc. and not see such obvious pareidolia, as straight forward shadow pareidolia. i have a few photos where my own shadow holding the camera shows up on the board with the pareidolic images, but i guess this also is no proof. All this topic just adds fuel to the fact that nothing can be proved or disproved including the existence of matter. People give way to much credence to the meaning of words. We can use complex math to put a man on the moon, but lets not forget that "two" is an abstract idea. There are no two of anything. Art and science will never mix. Some have poetic souls, others argumentative. As Lao Tzu said "now that i am out of court, i think i'll ascend back up on my cloud on the wings of my dragon." Love...
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16 years 6 months ago #20040
by rderosa
Replied by rderosa on topic Reply from Richard DeRosa
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by pareidoliac</i>
<br />"He who has eyes let her/him see." i have no real desire to prove or disprove anything to anyone at this point, especially the obvious. It just strikes me as strange for anyone to accept such bizarre premises like "martian artwork," "whole planet of art," etc. and not see such obvious pareidolia, as straight forward shadow pareidolia. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I agree. The only point I wanted to make, was that with the negatives there was a very objective easy way to "prove" your images are what they obviously are, using something familiar to everyone such as police crime lab techniques. The idea of traipsing around in the woods verifying (i.e., proving) that the faces in the trees correspond to the faces on the canvas just struck me as a nonsensical "strawman" type of argument.
In the event it ever <b>was </b>necessary to prove it, I would do it the way I suggested, if it was me.
By the way, I would re-write that quote as: "He who wants to see will see, he who doesn't won't"
rd
<br />"He who has eyes let her/him see." i have no real desire to prove or disprove anything to anyone at this point, especially the obvious. It just strikes me as strange for anyone to accept such bizarre premises like "martian artwork," "whole planet of art," etc. and not see such obvious pareidolia, as straight forward shadow pareidolia. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I agree. The only point I wanted to make, was that with the negatives there was a very objective easy way to "prove" your images are what they obviously are, using something familiar to everyone such as police crime lab techniques. The idea of traipsing around in the woods verifying (i.e., proving) that the faces in the trees correspond to the faces on the canvas just struck me as a nonsensical "strawman" type of argument.
In the event it ever <b>was </b>necessary to prove it, I would do it the way I suggested, if it was me.
By the way, I would re-write that quote as: "He who wants to see will see, he who doesn't won't"
rd
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16 years 6 months ago #20071
by gorme
Replied by gorme on topic Reply from Greg Orme
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by marsrocks</i>
<br />Interesting. Gorme, have you considered starting a thread with impossible natural geological features? Maybe it would attract a few geologists, crater experts, etc., which would allow you to get even more feedback on your finds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
My whole website is based on that, but perhaps I could start a thread here.
<br />Interesting. Gorme, have you considered starting a thread with impossible natural geological features? Maybe it would attract a few geologists, crater experts, etc., which would allow you to get even more feedback on your finds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
My whole website is based on that, but perhaps I could start a thread here.
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- neilderosa
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16 years 5 months ago #20830
by neilderosa
Replied by neilderosa on topic Reply from Neil DeRosa
I'm adding to my wish list some of the better faces we've looked at in the HiRISE color scheme. A repeated question for anyone who might know; which HiRISE color, the RGB or the IRB, is closer to the natural?
Here's the east half of the Cydonia face in a composite of the two color schemes and the whole face in black and white. Caution for anyone following the link: the caption image and some of the specialty choices are north south reversed so that south is up. [Neil]
hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003234_2210
Here's the east half of the Cydonia face in a composite of the two color schemes and the whole face in black and white. Caution for anyone following the link: the caption image and some of the specialty choices are north south reversed so that south is up. [Neil]
hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003234_2210
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