Broken Circle

(1/o+) = +inf

(1/O-) = -inf

lim(1/e) as e --> 0 = inf

Mac, mathematicians of infinity took care of your argument before blasting humanity with infinite stupidity.

JoeW,

My point was not so much in favor of a particular view. It is directed at the fact that some are tryng to have it both ways.

Arguing that 0

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>(+n)+(-n) can't represeent creation from nothing since "0" can never be nothing and yet proclaim Infinity in their view of Universal existance.

It is not a valid arguement one way or the other. Gotta pick sides.

If you say "0" is or can be nothing then you can support mathematically at least the concept of infinity. But you also then accept creation from nothing as a possibility. So both views become viable.

If you say "0" can never be nothing then you defeat your infinite arguement and at the same time make existance from nothing impossible as well. In which case we do not exist.

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JoeW,

My point was not so much in favor of a particular view. It is direct at the fact that some are tryng to have it both ways.

Arguing that 0

---

>(+n)+(-n) can't represeent creation from nothing since "0" can never be nothing and yet proclaim Infinity in their view of Universal existance.

It is not a valid arguement one way or the other. Gotta pick sides.

If you say "0" is or can be nothing then you can support mathematically at least the concept of infinity. But you also then accept creation from nothing as a possibility. So both views become viable.

If you say "0" can never be nothing then you defeat your infinite arguement and at the same time make existance from nothing impossible as well. In which case we do not exist.


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Yes, I agree with this logic. If one is to use math as an analog to a physical model, to include infinity while excluding 0 is a fallacy.
So, bravo, I think this shows simply and clearly why Dr. Flandern's premises are flawed.

123...,

Thanks.

I think we can add one other falacy.

The mere idea that the Universe has existed forever (infinite time) and therefore was never created. That to me is feloneous on its surface but I can add some meat to the charge rather than simply say it makes no sense.

To state that the Universe has existed forever (Infinite time) simply would mean time would now be stopped and not continuing on. You can not add to infinity, since we currently exist and enjoy continued accumulation of time it seems most obvious that its existance cannot be viewed as infinite for then there could be no future time.

To add even more fodder to the improper use of infinity in describing anything real: Nor can you stop time from progressing for then time will have become finite.

Simply put "Infinity" is not a useful term to associate with anythng in reality.

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123...,

Thanks.

I think we can add one other falacy.

The mere idea that the Universe has existed forever (infinite time) and therefore was never created. That to me is feloneous on its surface but I can add some meat to the charge rather than simply say it makes no sense.

To state that the Universe has existed forever (Infinite time) simply would mean time would now be stopped and not continuing on. You can not add to infinity, since we currently exist and enjoy continued accumulation of time it seems most obvious that its existance cannot be viewed as infinite for then there could be no future time.



To add even more fodder to the improper use of infinity in describing anything real: Nor can you stop time from progressing for then time will have become finite.

Simply put "Infinity" is not a useful term to associate with anythng in reality.


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Yes, these appear to be real sticking points for any view based on eternity and infinity in general. Our time starting from now then would be infinity +. LOL. The infiniticians would propose here that we are living now in a larger infinite set, and each moment that passes, a larger infinite set is created. Larger infinite sets- if that is not an oxymoron... and yet, the mathematicians truly believe that the infinite set of real numbers is larger than the infinite set of integers. Different cardinality my ass.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(Mac)To state that the Universe has existed forever (Infinite time) simply would mean time would now be stopped and not continuing on. You can not add to infinity, since we currently exist and enjoy continued accumulation of time it seems most obvious that its existance cannot be viewed as infinite for then there could be no future time.

Simply put "Infinity" is not a useful term to associate with anythng in reality. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
Just to add my 2 cents...

I agree that "Infinity" is not a useful term to associate with anything in reality, it is strictly a mathematical term. However, I <u>DO</u> believe that the "substance", which in my opinion is simply "Energy", that makes up the universe is "eternal" and therefore makes time a non-issue about the "universe" itself. "Eternal" has a completely different meaning then "Infinite" one being that "Eternal" means <u>without time</u>.

I'll stop here because I don't want to turn your post into a circus<img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>


Patrick<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>


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Eternal means infinite time. If it means without time then yesterday is just like today is just like tommorrow. There would be no change, no motion, nothing.